Question about Haixing and Dixing energy incompatibility and Ye Zun eating people in Guardian

[likealeafonthewind]

I've been going over this in my head and I feel like I'm just going around in circles so I'm hoping some of you will have some ideas or are willing to talk through this with me. Cut for spoilers:
 
Okay, we know that Dixing energy and Haixing energy are incompatible, right? That's why when the Haixingren blew himself up, it injured Black Cloaked Envoy and that's why Shen Wei was able to kill Ye Zun (because his energy changed to be like a Haixingren rather than a Dixingren).

But....hasn't Ye Zun been eating both Dixingren and Haixingren (all those guys from the underground fighting ring, for example; also Lin Jing). Wouldn't the incompatibility of their light energy life force cause him problems when he digests them? 

I could headcanon a way for Shen Wei to have been able to kill him with the light energy - that it was really because he himself didn't completely transition from dark energy to light and that the mix of both in his body was going to cause an explosion sooner or later, whether he was in Ye Zun or not (so when he was cutting himself in ZYL's apartment, he was trying to keep the balance between both energies, to keep them stable...I think someone else mentioned this in another post actually, so it's not my original headcanon, but it works).

But that still doesn't explain why Ye Zun's able to eat both Dixingren and Haixingren without, I don't know, at least some indigestion. Also, he apparently may not be able to digest inanimate objects? Or it takes longer? Because Sha Ya's guitar case is still in his digestive system when Lin Jing gets eaten, even though she herself is gone.

And then, along the lines of how Shen Wei got some Haixingren energy - was it a trade-off? Did ZYL get some of his Dixingren energy in return? Or was Shen Wei simply using the Longevity Dial to connect their life forces so that he could extract the Dixingren energy that had injured him and some of ZYL's light energy came with it? (And then maybe once they're connected, they can't disconnect? Maybe the Longevity Dial works by trying to equilibrize [I made up this word, lol] two different life forces? So with Li Qian and her grandmother, since they were both Haixingren, the balance was a compromise between both their health and lifespan? But for ZYL and Shen Wei, because one is a non-powered Haixingren and the other is a long-lived all-powerful Dixingren, equilibrium was reached by healing ZYL's eyes and reducing Shen Wei's powers and possibly both of them would have shared a lifespan somewhere between a Haixingren and a Dixingren if they hadn't both sacrificed themselves for the cause.

Sorry, that got a little rambly. Anyway, please share any thoughts you have below.

Comments

[jo_lasalle]

I think as a general caveat, this show is very fuzzy on how all of this energy business worked and what went down how.

It's a cool question - I've spent more time wondering about Shen Wei and the energy business than Ye Zun, so, interesting!

I figured Ye Zun eating a random human would not put 'light energy' inside him as such. He eats them, but it's not like their energy is 'released' or anything - a bit like the difference between eating something and injecting something into your bloodstream. Eating random people kills them and, potentially, absorbs their power; having Shen Wei with his light energy/dark energy mix inside him meant the light energy was 'active' in a very powerful being, and so when it's suddenly released, it has a destructive effect.

Is ATM my best guess. This show still breaks my brain sometimes! Curious what other theories are around on this.

[bonibaru]

yeah I think about it as the difference between digestion (ye zun) and transfusion (dial)

[lynndyre]

Honestly Shen Wei's exact energy content after ep22 and what he does with it, I'm not sure of. I think it's a mixture, though, and that the mixture is unstable in a way that straight Haixing or Dixing energy isn't.

But I also think Ye Zun would have been able to digest Shen Wei eventually if Shen Wei hadn't detonated that energy.

Best guess for why Ye Zun can eat Haixing people but Shen Wei suffers from the energy exchange is something similar to jo_lasalle's - he's eating them not injecting them, and his body has time to break them down and convert them to usable energy- and his power is specifically the ability to do that. Unlike Shen Wei, who contaminated his system with a direct infusion of energy it wasn't meant to handle.

[rheasilvia]

Yes, this is also my take on it. Like a goat, Ye Zun can digest pretty much everything - as long as it's a gradual absorption. This is why it was so important that Lin Jing stab Shen Wei to release all of his (mostly) Haixingian energy at once.

I also had the impression Shen Wei directed the energy so it was released in a particularly destructive way - which was why it was good Lin Jing was there to do the stabbing, so Shen Wei could concentrate solely on directing the energy rather than stabbing himself, too.

No Haixingian would have this massive amount of energy in the usual run of things, and it would never usually be released this suddenly and well-directedly. So Ye Zun could eat as many Haixingians as he wanted without worry, I'd say. ;-)

However! Perhaps a Haixingian serum mutant who took a concentrated dose of the serum - like Zhao Yunlan - could have achieved the same effect, if they'd known to release the energy all at once.

likealeafonthewind:
And then, along the lines of how Shen Wei got some Haixingren energy - was it a trade-off?

I think it was a connection more than a trade-off. I’m not sure about the equilibrium… it’s very hard to say! I tend to think the energies can’t really mix enough to achieve equilibrium, and that Shen Wei was instead gradually changing himself entirely to Haixingian energy, and had to keep the Dixingian energy very carefully in check (and away from Zhao Yunlan) in the meantime. A Dixingian with less control over their energy would probably immediately have exploded when linked to a Haixingian like this. If Shen Wei had lived, he would simply have changed to using entirely Haixingian energy, and might have been less powerful. His powers would probably have changed, anyway.

And the connection does seem to stay open, since they both have a sense of the other being in distress afterwards (can’t think of which ep this is right now, but Shen Wei goes running off at some point because he senses ZYL is in danger, and of course Zhao Yunlan wakes up when Shen Wei is cutting himself to bleed off some dark energy when the two energies are mixing dangerously).

So they’d have ended up using the same kind of energy, and linked. Which I think is a pretty neat thought, because who knows what that might have turned into? Maybe ZYL could have drawn on Shen Wei’s powers in a pinch. Maybe Shen Wei would have suddenly gained incisive insight into people’s motivations at key moments. ;-)

[likealeafonthewind]

Like a goat, Ye Zun can digest pretty much everything - as long as it's a gradual absorption.

I admit, I laughed when you compared Ye Zun to a goat. But yes, it makes sense that he'd be able to safely gradually digest the people he's eaten. I'm imagining that he's got specialized proteins and enzymes that can break down the bodies, isolate the energy, and convert it into something usable for him.

I've only seen the last episode once and I can't bring myself to watch it again so I may not be remembering this correctly, but I thought Shen Wei had Lin Jing push the icicle the rest of the way into his body so that it (the pain, I'm guessing?) would trigger one last burst of his ability which he used to send Lin Jing, the Regent, and the King back outside. It looked to me like what he did to finally kill Ye Zun was to use his ability to pull the icicle out of his body so that the light energy would bleed out of him and into Ye Zun. So as I was thinking more about this, I thought that maybe it was the contact or the exposure to raw Haixing energy that killed Ye Zun? As opposed to when he's able to gradually digest and process the Haixing energy without it bleeding all over his internal organs?

Also, Shen Wei was waiting for a specific time or event to happen before having Lin Jing stab him and I can't remember now what it was....

So they’d have ended up using the same kind of energy, and linked. Which I think is a pretty neat thought, because who knows what that might have turned into?

Yeah, I think this is very interesting! I was trying to think of any times in the show we might have seen ZYL displaying Dixing powers after being linked with Shen Wei but I can't. But this is definitely something that I think could be plausibly explored in fic, because probably all they needed was the time and space to really explore their new link and what it means for them.

[rheasilvia]

I've only seen the last episode once and I can't bring myself to watch it again so I may not be remembering this correctly

Yeah, I get that. :-/ I've seen it about 4 times now, but I still can't think about that scene very well because, argh. Still, I consulted my notes, and you are absolutely right, Shen Wei first has Lin Jing push it all the way in, then sends out Lin Jing and the others, and finally pulls out the ice cone himself to release the final burst of energy. I guess he wasn't sure he'd have the strength to push it all the way in and then pull it out again?

Oh man.

The moment Shen Wei chooses coincides with Ye Zun being attacked physically - Zhao Yunlan has just stuck the Mount-River Awl into his forehead - so I think he was just waiting for a good moment, when Ye Zun would be already weakened, and perhaps distracted.

I thought that maybe it was the contact or the exposure to raw Haixing energy that killed Ye Zun? As opposed to when he's able to gradually digest and process the Haixing energy without it bleeding all over his internal organs?

That's what I thought, too. It's far too much for his system to handle at once. Despite his goat-like nature. ;-)

I was trying to think of any times in the show we might have seen ZYL displaying Dixing powers after being linked with Shen Wei but I can't.

I don't think there are any (and the unusual strength ZYL displays later is just because of the serum). I'd love to see it explored in fic, though. They really did just lack the time.

[likealeafonthewind]

I guess he wasn't sure he'd have the strength to push it all the way in and then pull it out again?

Maybe if all he needed to do was let the Haixing blood spill out into Ye Zun's system, he could have managed pulling the ice cone out on his own (and was maybe only thinking he needed to do that?). But then he got there and saw that Lin Jing was still alive in there, so he came up with the plan for Lin Jing to give that last push to trigger his powers so that he could save him (and later, the other two)? Because I doubt he was expecting for Lin Jing to still be around to help him with this.

Zhao Yunlan has just stuck the Mount-River Awl into his forehead

I wonder if he knew that happened because of his link with ZYL? Or was there a sign inside Ye Zun's body?

I'm glad you took notes about this so that neither of us had to go back and rewatch this episode, lol. Did you take notes on all of the episodes? Would you by any chance be interested in contributing to a Guardian wiki?

[rheasilvia]

he could have managed pulling the ice cone out on his own (and was maybe only thinking he needed to do that?). But then he got there and saw that Lin Jing was still alive in there, so he came up with the plan for Lin Jing to give that last push to trigger his powers

Yes! That makes perfect sense to me. Indeed, he couldn't have known how slowly Ye Zun digested his victims, and that there would still be someone in there to help him.

When ZYL sticks the Mount-River Awl into Ye Zun, some of his dark energy escapes, and the undigested people inside him get thrown about a bit. So Shen Wei knows something is weakening and/or distracting Ye Zun, and it's a good moment.

I did take notes on almost all of the eps - I only need to go back to eps 5-11 and take notes on those, too. I got carried away on my note-taking rewatch and ended up just watching them and not taking notes. ;-) In my defence, they are among my favorite eps!

I'd be interested in contributing to a Guardian wiki in theory, but the problem is that I don't know where I'd find the time! I think it's great that you're making one, though - fandom will definitely benefit from a wiki. There are so many things to keep track of in this series...

[solo]

If you'd simply share the notes you have, I'm sure the rest of us could integrate them into the wiki. I had notes too, which Bonibaru now has and which I could also contribute.

[rheasilvia]

Alas, my notes are hand-written in an actual paper notebook... and there are a lot of them. It's simply much easier for me to take notes by hand, and I hadn't considered the need for digitalization. :-/

[solo]

OMG are you Shen Wei? I bow to you, your Excellency.

Not. Get with this millenium.

Take photos and send them to me. :) I'll do the rest.

[rheasilvia]

I sent you an example pic... don't know if you really want to invest that much time, but hey, let me know. :-)

[lynndyre]

"like a goat"
/dying (those videos of goats randomly screaming because the universe displeases them? I do see the resemblance)


I wish I had a clearer idea of exactly what Shen Wei was doing in 23- was he bleeding off imbalance? Dark energy only? Was he at that point doing what he told Zhao Yunlan, and trying to drain/flush his system, or was that a lie?

[likealeafonthewind]

I think only dark energy was being released at that point - I don't remember seeing any red blood in his cut, which is the color of his blood later when he's being beaten up by Ye Zun. So maybe he still had too much Dixing energy in 23 and was trying to get rid of some of it?

[rheasilvia]

Heeee! I must go look for those videos!!!

Henceforth my name for Ye Zun will definitely be goat-related. ;-) White Goat, maybe?

[likealeafonthewind]

Here's one that phyrry sent me after I told her about the comparison! It's hilarious.

[rheasilvia]

ROFLMAO!

This is so wonderful. :-) These goats have exactly the same attitude as Ye Zun. Just plop a wig on one of them and there you are.

I knew he reminded me of something!!! ;-)

[china_shop]

And the connection does seem to stay open, since they both have a sense of the other being in distress afterwards (can’t think of which ep this is right now, but Shen Wei goes running off at some point because he senses ZYL is in danger

Do you mean at the end of ep 20 when Ye Zun is attacking ZYL, and Shen Wei arrives at the Dept of Supervision and immediately takes off again? Because I assumed that Shen Wei was sensing the Longevity Dial activating, when ZYL used it as a shield.

Oh, but, doh, that's before the energy exchange, so that can't be what you mean... *is now very curious to know when Shen Wei might be sensing that ZYL is in danger!*

[rheasilvia]

It must be later on...? As far as I remember, Shen Wei is in Dixing, and suddenly stops in his tracks because Zhao Yunlan has once again managed to get himself into trouble.

Argh, I can't remember very clearly. I will go through my notes in the hopes of finding it.

[china_shop]

Huh. I'll have to pay attention during my (very slow) rewatch. I don't remember any indication of a psychic link/connection. (And I mean, if they'd had one, I feel like they would have leaned into it a bit, Guardian being Guardian, you know?)

[rheasilvia]

And I mean, if they'd had one, I feel like they would have leaned into it a bit, Guardian being Guardian, you know?

Yes, you really would think that they'd expand on the bond a bit! Though they might not have had the time, since everything was basically falling apart by then and SW spent most of his time chained to pillars and being digested by the Dixingian equivalent of a psychopathic goat. :-(

[solo]

Shen Wei definitely knows ZYL is in danger when he's at Haixing Inspectorate. ZYL went off because 'emergency' and sent Shen Wei to represent them both, and as soon as Shen Wei arrives he gets a 'feeling' and simply dashes off.

So yes, he sensed something. Maybe ZYL being in danger. The other thing he might have sensed is Ye Zun being around, which would be the same thing only from another direction.

[china_shop]

Given he's turned up before when ZYL's been handling the Longevity Dial, it might have been that. He only really reacts once ZYL activates the Dial.

[extrapenguin]

Re: Shen Wei switching over his energy, I now want a fic that's set post-canon, but Shen Wei has turned into a Haixingren with no powers, and has to figure out his life now that his very identity and raison d'être is gone.

[rheasilvia]

That would be an amazing premise for a story! I want that fic, too...

I actually imagine that after an initial disconcerted phase in which Shen Wei just doesn't know what to do with himself or if he still has any worth, he might grow to be very happy and content. He has plenty of good things going for him - he's a professor, has a boyfriend he's madly in love with, and consults with the SID on top of that.

Zhao Yunlan would be the perfect boyfriend for going through an identity crisis like that with, too. Better than therapy. ;-) He'd keep reminding Shen Wei that he's allowed to just live for himself, and that he's done more than enough for dozens of people, and that Zhao Yunlan still finds him just as worthy of his time and affection.

[extrapenguin]

He'd likely be very, very depressed for at least a while, as suddenly all his life just ... doesn't work anymore. He can't use his Dixing powers to teleport to work and has to commute like a regular person etc, and the loss of the Envoy identity – the very first mask he hid himself behind, starting from puberty – would hit him hard. At the end, he'd still be the beloved Shen Wei, Professor of Bioengineering, but the journey of accepting his losses would likely be long and hard. It'd likely also involve going through the SID library and other sources to see if there was a way to get his powers back, because Shen Wei thinks the whole world is his responsibility, and how is he supposed to do that if he doesn't have any Dixing powers???

I agree that Zhao Yunlan would be the perfect boyfriend for that! He'd continue telling Shen Wei that he's allowed to be selfish and retire and not place the entire world on his shoulders, and then just continue being his usual self and loving Shen Wei to pieces.

[rheasilvia]

Oh yes, it will be a very painful process! Shen Wei will have to pain-stakingly rebuild his self-image from the ground up, and despite all of Zhao Yunlan's efforts, he has never quite managed to believe that he is a person worth anything beyond his ability to be a weapon in defence of those who can't protect themselves.

He will almost certainly do some extremely foolish and self-destructive things in an attempt to act as he always has... in effect, he will still be trying to throw himself on grenades now that he no longer has the power to survive such a thing.

I actually feel sorry for Zhao Yunlan just thinking about this. Not that Zhao Yunlan has ever been that much better. Which I am sure Shen Wei will be the first to mention. :-)

And maybe in the end, Shen Wei would discover that he has actually developed some entirely new and different powers based on light energy. And at that point he would *not* immediately come out of retirement and start sacrificing himself again, because he has truly learned to live as a person, and for the first time in his life, he is truly happy, and isn't willing to give that up.

[likealeafonthewind]

Awww, this would be such a sweet h/c angst-with-a-happy-ending fic.

Shen Wei would still have his sword-fighting skills, though, and possibly even his own sword (he just might not be able to dematerialize it anymore, so he'd have to carry it the old-fashioned way), so I imagine he would continue to throw himself into battle with it. Only he keeps forgetting that he's no longer able to just heal any injuries he sustains. And Zhao Yunlan would just be beside himself with worry.

[rheasilvia]

It would be a lovely story! If only I didn't already have so many plot bunnies. It is insane, I tell you.

he keeps forgetting that he's no longer able to just heal any injuries he sustains

Yes... and part of it is not that he forgets he is now far more fragile, but just that he accepts that he will break. After all, what worth does his life have anymore? If he can sacrifice himself for a greater good, wouldn't that be the best thing? Shen Wei has always been too eager to sacrifice himself - this situation would make it a thousand times worse.

I would not want to be in Zhao Yunlan's shoes.

[likealeafonthewind]

Same. I'm tempted to write it but I've already got too many that I'm working on and they're all looking like they're gonna be long plotty fics (I can't seem to do any short fluffy pieces for Guardian, every plot bunny is massive).

[extrapenguin]

Yes! The sort of grey space between "forgets he can't survive such things any more" and "passively suicidal" and Zhao Yunlan feels the urge to wrap Shen Wei up in a padded blanket and confine him to bed. (Shen Wei calls this just desserts if Zhao Yunlan ever complains.)

And maybe in the end, Shen Wei would discover that he has actually developed some entirely new and different powers based on light energy. And at that point he would *not* immediately come out of retirement and start sacrificing himself again, because he has truly learned to live as a person, and for the first time in his life, he is truly happy, and isn't willing to give that up.
I could live with him getting zero powers at the end, but yes, I want him to have learned to live as a person! And I know you meant something completely different, but I was struck with an image of Shen Wei having the power to make lamps turn on, regardless of how broken or disconnected from the power mains they were. Imagine how popular he would be in Dixing!

[rheasilvia]

The sort of grey space between "forgets he can't survive such things any more" and "passively suicidal"

So much this. He has always been too eager to sacrifice himself, but in this situation he would be trying with active vigor.

Shen Wei calls this just desserts if Zhao Yunlan ever complains.

They are both hypocrites when it comes to complaining about the other one being self-sacrificing and recklessly putting himself into danger. ;-) But I imagine that where complaints won't get through to Shen Wei, Zhao Yunlan's genuine despair will.

I could live with him getting zero powers at the end, but yes, I want him to have learned to live as a person!

The new powers would demonstrate that he truly *has* learned, and hasn't just given up on world-saving because he doesn't think he can still make a difference. To me that would be the ultimate happy ending - to show that he won't return to his old ways not because he isn't capable, but because he doesn't want to anymore, and has moved on.

And I know you meant something completely different, but I was struck with an image of Shen Wei having the power to make lamps turn on, regardless of how broken or disconnected from the power mains they were. Imagine how popular he would be in Dixing!

LOL! Oh, yes, that'd be a nice one. And he'd need a new name - the Night Light, perhaps? ;-)

(He could also light the Guardian Lantern, then, of course...)

[extrapenguin]

But I imagine that where complaints won't get through to Shen Wei, Zhao Yunlan's genuine despair will.
Zhao Yunlan's sadface and guilt trips would make Shen Wei pause and listen for a bit, it is true! And maybe stay put and do some fussing/let himself be fussed over, instead of finding a grenade to jump onto.

The new powers would demonstrate that he truly *has* learned, and hasn't just given up on world-saving because he doesn't think he can still make a difference. To me that would be the ultimate happy ending - to show that he won't return to his old ways not because he isn't capable, but because he doesn't want to anymore, and has moved on.
Oh, so you're coming at it from *that* angle! I am converted. Let Shen Wei get a Haixing power! (My prior aim was more "Shen Wei learns to live as a normal person who doesn't get any deus ex machina returning of powers" and the bad-ish end wouldn't be undercut.)

Another hilariously fitting Haixing power: the ability to instantly understand how modern tech works. Suddenly, Professor Shen can input the grades into the system himself!

(He could also light the Guardian Lantern, then, of course...)
Guardian Lantern lighting with zero sacrifice involved! ♥

[phyrry]

Oh. Oh, no.

(puts it on the list)

[extrapenguin]

*cackles madly*

[silverblade219]

I am not sure, but I thought it was taking him longer to absorb Lin Jin than it would have another Dixingren. The other guys from the underground fighting ring all had to match specific qualifications before they were given to Zhu Jiu & Ye Zun, but don't remember what they were.

[likealeafonthewind]

I don't remember either and I'm not sure what episode this first came up, because it was initially shown as some random end scene, I think, before the underground fighting ring is fully explored. I think it had something to do with strong, healthy bodies.

[china_shop]

Halfway through episode 12, the fight club manager (I think?) says, "Your criteria are too hard to satisfy: they have to be young and lively and have a healthy physique."

[likealeafonthewind]

Oh, great! (Also, I LOVE your icon.)

Okay, so (speculation and handwaving time) maybe young and lively so that they have more life energy for Ye Zun to consume? And a healthy physique could mean (besides being free of illness) also not injured and actively bleeding so that he's not directly exposed to Haixing energy before his body can process it properly?

[china_shop]

I thought he just wanted the equivalent of organic, farm-grown produce. Only the best! ;-)

(Thanks! A friend made it.)

[lynndyre]

It's also sort of interesting that Ye Zun's collecting basically yang energy there, when of the two twins he's the yin.

[solo]

He's the yin? he seems pretty yangy to me... not early on but definitely since he ate the rebel leader.

[lynndyre]

I was thinking about their origins, yeah. Later on they might shift.

[extrapenguin]

Obviously he's just jealous that gege got to be the yang one. How dare!

(Or, actually, the white of the yin-yang symbol refers to yang, so in that sense Ye Zun is the yang one.)

[solo]

But when he gets the fight club guys, Zhu Jiu has simply pocketed their energy already, he doesn't get the entire bodies but just the essences. Maybe like... IDK, a vitamin pill or a smoothie. But when he absorbs entire people, there's much more digesting involved, and they may have guitars or other indigestibles, and so that takes longer.